problem with BIR and my iMac

Discussion in 'iMac' started by elbert, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. Mad Mac

    Mad Mac Active Member

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    Dual boot Elbert :p
     
  2. Juice

    Juice PhilMUG Addict Member
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    Arguing with the BIR, is like arguing with your math teacher. They'll just give you more problems.

    If the BIR requires you to have a Windows type machine, what do stores like Powermac, iStudio, etc. use for their POS? With a Windows system? I like that dual boot idea. Maybe that is a possible compromise. But then again if they have a commission with POS providers, they might insist on that.
     
  3. daney_waney

    daney_waney Active Member

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    I just have to correct this. Both an invoice and an O.R. Can be legal documents as long they comply with the requirements under the Tax Code. When you get audited, they can be used to support your books/accounts. The main differen between the 2 is that an O.R. Should be issued for every sale of service while an invoice should be issued for every sale of goods/property.
     
  4. longhegrin

    longhegrin Member

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    That sounds extremely narrow minded of the BIR. Also, we have to remind ourselves that the BIR is answerable to the voters. The BIR's powers come from you, from me, from us, from the voters.

    We shouldn't be afraid of the BIR. If only all of us voters could join forces and tell the government to improve the BIR.
     
  5. indygo

    indygo Member

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    Technically, I don't see any violation of Revenue Regulation No. 11-2004, as amended by Revenue Memorandum Order No. 10-2005 (accreditation and approval of the use of a CRM/POS), because the iMac is not being used to issue receipts, but the mere fact that the Revenue District Officers are asking for the pertinent documentation of the approval of using the iMac in recording initial order taking and sales, means that the said approval is lacking, which could point to a different ruling under Revenue Memorandum Order No. 21-2000 as amended by Revenue Memorandum Order No. 29-2002, which states that all CAS (Computerized Accounting Systems) and Computerized Books of Accounts should be duly registered.

    CAS refers to any system application adopted to generate accounting records, reports and/or documents.

    You need to submit a Flowchart documentation of how you come up with the financial records, and need to have the system approved.

    Lani, CPA, CIA
     
    #45 indygo, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  6. indygo

    indygo Member

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    I actually asked 1 RDO and 2 District Heads and they are asking what type of records does your iMac produce exactly? If only for taking orders and sales, its a CRM; if in addition it issues receipts or at least computes receipts, it's a POS, and if it handles bookkeeping, it's a CAS. Uhm sorry but their definitions are so vague :p. Just go with whatever the RDO in your area defined your system. Ending, you still need the Systems Flowchart and the approval.
     
  7. elbert

    elbert Active Member

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    Thanks for the valuable inputs and feedback.

    For now, I'd just like to reiterate that it's the idea of purchasing a POS for such a small business that bugs me. The iMac can easily run a POS system via BootCamp or VMWare. I simply don't agree with the idea in having to invest in a POS system to handle such a small operation. We only have 7 tables and we literally have just a dozen transactions a day. Why buy a commercial truck when all you want to do is go to the market to buy a few vegetables? It's overkill.

    I am not averse to the idea of a POS per se. Proof of this is the fact that I have a POS running at my Cheesesteak operation, which handles well over 100 transactions a day.

    I'll update you all as to the outcome once we have resolved issues.
     
  8. Jess

    Jess PhilMUG Addict Member

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    you are correct but i don't see anything wrong with what blessie15 posted. the issuance of guest check technically replaces "sales invoice" but the problem is those guest checks are not really invoices since they are without the approval of the BIR.
     
  9. daney_waney

    daney_waney Active Member

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    Yes but the invoices of a service supplier do not need the approval of the BIR. What needs approval is the "official receipt" that needs to be issued. :) That's what is being regulated and monitored by the BIR. The wrong premise by blessie15 that I was pointing out is her statement that an "invoice" is not a legal document. For all intents and purposes, you can use that to prove your claim except that when it comes to sale of services, it is important that it be supported by an NIRC compliant official receipt.

    Rev. Regs. 16-2005 provides:

    "SECTION 4.113-1. Invoicing Requirements. —(A) A VAT-registered person shall issue: —
    (1) A VAT invoice for every sale, barter or exchange of goods or properties; and
    (2) A VAT official receipt for every lease of goods or properties, and for every sale, barter or exchange of services.
    Only VAT-registered persons are required to print their TIN followed by the word "VAT" in their invoice or official receipts. Said documents shall be considered as a "VAT Invoice" or VAT official receipt. All purchases covered by invoices/receipts other than VAT Invoice/VAT Official Receipt shall not give rise to any input tax."

    Clear from the above that for a supplier of services, what is important is that he issue a VAT-OR. VAT-Invoices are needed for sales of goods but not for sales of service. When a taxpayer uses as basis for a business expense deduction a non-compliant invoice, the deduction will be allowed as long as the other requirements for a business expense deduction are complied with. Thus, it is incorrect to say that a non-compliant invoice is not a legal document because for all intents and purposes, it can be used for other legal purposes. Sure you cannot use it to claim input VAT, but it still is a legal document. In Elbert's case, he issues an official receipt and that is what is important for VAT purposes. Neither the BIR nor the Tax Code imposes a requirement for the form of invoice for a sale of service. Corollarily, you do not need to obtain an Authority to Print Sales Invoices if you're a supplier of goods. What you need is an Authority to Print Official Receipts. This ensures that the Official Receipt you will issue is compliant with the requirements of the Tax Code.
     
  10. Jess

    Jess PhilMUG Addict Member

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    5 pages in, the bottomline: it is difficult to do business here in our country. it is not investor friendly.
     
  11. daney_waney

    daney_waney Active Member

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    More so if you have a Commissioner in a "collect at all costs, proper interpretation/application of the law be damned". :p
     
  12. Ezurn

    Ezurn Member

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    Well, this is a problem if your government keeps investing on TRASH THINGS. I mean no bad things but hey, come on! They would rather re-concrete, or as they say "widen", a road that is fully functional than sending their human resource for continuing education. Government staff that needs technical and theoretical advancements need to be enrolled so as to cope with the demands of the changing world. BIR - Government agency that does not recognize an iMac, why? simply because they don't know what it does, what software it runs and probably is far more advanced than the WINDOWS 98 software that runs on some of their computer to which they are only familiar with! BIR, come on, you have your own definition of what a POS system is and with that definition, even an iPod touch can be a POS device.

    Hey, I am not living abroad, nor a person who knows nothing but to criticize all people. I know it's not good to defame the government but then again, voicing out something is not all bad. This is just a constructive criticism of a salary person, working hard, paying tax duties but see no improvements, especially in education. (Continuing education is still part of such)
     
  13. Kritiker

    Kritiker Member

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    ^ Well, I for one will be against sending those people for continuing education. If you go to the gov't offices, the people there are grumpy and sometimes rude. I don't want my tax spent on their education. It's a personality problem and higher/continuing education won't help them improve it. It's not worth the painful tax deducted on my salary and added as VAT on the things I purchase. That's just my take on that. :)
     
  14. elbert

    elbert Active Member

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    Just to update,

    My meeting with the RDO supervisor went well. I don't want to divulge too much, but essentially, all that I need to do is submit a notarized affidavit that the iMac will not be used to invoicing or O.R. printing. That's very fair to me.

    In essence, I promise to keep to a manual system of billing with our FileMaker Pro purely for post-sales recording purposes. That's fair to me too.

    Thanks for all the inputs posted here. In the end, it's all about communication, face to face communication, to be precise.
     
  15. Kritiker

    Kritiker Member

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    ^That's great to hear. You may want to get a note/ruling/something physical that you can hold on to. This is just in case the RDO supervisor resigns,retires,gets fired, etc. This will help you in the future in case somebody in the BIR tries to harass/extort from you. :)
     
  16. ste@lth

    [email protected] Well-Known Member

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    This thread provided me very good information, thanks a lot for this. :)
     
  17. Shadowfox

    Shadowfox Active Member

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    All things being said, that guy doing the audit/assessment was probably just playing hardass because the truth is he might just be nitpicking. Deep inside, he might even be hoping that you'll eventually give up and settle things (read: areglo), so he'll get some under-the-table kickbacks. Of course, he can't tell you upfront because everybody knows that's wrong. Check out the surveys and you can't blame the respondents for saying BIR sits there right up there on top with DPWH and the Customs Bureau as government agencies perceived to be the most corrupt. A lot of people are good taxpayers but then again some are willing to pay grease money for the easy way out, that it somehow became a trend (hindi dudulas ang ballpen pag walang lagay) and is kind of even expected. Harsh but reality bites and it pisses people off. May nanloloko, may nagpapaloko. It shouldn't be tolerated.

    Maganda nga n'yan next time, i-setup na for an entrapment operation para kung may ginawang kalokohan fire 'em from their jobs right away. Sampolan para huwag tularan.
     
  18. elbert

    elbert Active Member

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    To be clear, there was no under-the-table or "areglo" that took place. I treated the examiner and her staff to lunch at my restaurant, had pleasant conversation with them, agreed to pay the fine of P25,000 for the violation, of which paid at the casher and were issued an official receipt. Everything is back to the way it was, iMac with FileMaker Pro.

    All's well that ends well.
     

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