The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings. This expression is applicable to Super Bowl LI. I killed the TV after the halftime show satisfied in the knowledge that the Falcons would win. Then, horror of horrors, they lost, and I LOST as well. Falcons never scored a point after Lady Gaga's Super Bowl halftime show. Supposedly, this is the picture that jinxed the Falcons. Something ominous is showing --- a matter of faith rather than proof.
It's tricky only if the argument disregards a lot of points. Each player in any sport have their own pros and cons in terms of greatness. But it's a great discussion to be involved in since you learn a lot from it. For me it's celebrating greatness of the human spirit. I will argue to death that Brady is way better than Montana, Manning, etc. but I would have trouble arguing it against Elway. He might be the real GOAT, all things considered.
Yes, Elway was better. Take it from this cab driver, who clearly isn't biased because he's from Pittsburgh! GOAT proclamations in any sport are usually made by self-congratulating fanboys. Most have a limited knowledge of sports history. Some are just plain ignorant. Some talk of rings like the NFL did not exist before the Super Bowl. Duh. The NFL has been around since before World War I. And before the "splinter" AFL (now AFC) was formed in 1960, there was only one league (the NFL, now NFC), so all champions then were equivalent to the Super Bowl. Heck, the Green Bay Packers have won 13 NFL Championships. Their QB in the 60s, Bart Starr, won five rings—back when QBs called almost all the plays from the huddle. Imagine that: a quarterback who won five championships (including the first two Super Bowls) by calling the plays himself—not waiting for the sideline coaches to signal plays in. And therein lies my contention with GOAT claims in any sport—the lack of respect for history and the legends of the sport. Respect! 50 years from now, kids will be proclaiming their team's QB as the GOAT. Elway? Brady who? Just like none of you know/remember Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Y.A. Tittle, Bart Starr, et al—all legendary QBs who called their own plays! So stop drinkin' the GOAT Kool-Aid. Well, we know what the Falcons have been drinking, straight from the bottler's Atlanta HQ:
I'm sorry but I do know who/what those are. I know who Jim Brown is, who Paul Brown is, who invented the West Coast offense, I know what the Holy Roller is, the Ice Bowl, and many more. Please don't be so arrogant that you think you're the only one who studied the history. If you think the GOAT discussion is futile then why are you even participating? Sheesh.
I believe the best comeback was the Bills over the Oilers, and I don't think this Super Ball will be matched in my lifetime.
Came back from 38 points right and it wasn't Kelly at QB? I said the same thing after I saw the Rams-Titans Super Bowl. Then SB 36 happened, SB 38, Santonio Holmes tip-toe TD, the Giants wins in SB 42 and SB 46 (ugh!), 49 and now 51. I think the trend will continue.
The GOAT discussion is “the hot topic” since yesterday in the sports programs (ESPN, Fox, Sports Illustrated, NFL Network, MMQB, some podcasts, and others) I have watched or followed. By the way, I am not into social media – so I cannot say what they are saying on Twitter and Facebook. Needless to say, however, the experts in those programs I mentioned are not “fanboys” of the PATS (in fact, some of them are even PATS haters, particularly ESPN “experts”); neither do they lack “knowledge of sports history”; neither do they intend to disrespect the sport and its history. But they engage in a healthy discussion and debate – without calling it or dismissing it as “futile.” The consensus regarding the GOAT (it is almost unanimous) is… guess who??? Lest I be branded just an “ignorant and disrespectful” fanboy… I will just leave it at that. By the way, I am enjoying my Kool-Aid! Cheers! Peace!!!
"Greatness" is a hot button to spark debates in sports (I've been guilty of that as anyone), as it's not really a concrete achievement. It's really the weight of collective opinion. It's tricky enough to apply to sports where individuals actually win individual victories or championships - tennis singles, golf majors, 100m sprint, etc. And it's a lot harder to apply that word to an individual in a team sport, donchathink.
You fell for a trick play. I said *most* GOAT claimants are fanboys—which is true. You rarely see GOAT claimants not proclaim their favorite. Bulls fans debating for MJ; Celtics for Russell or Bird, and on and on. I said *most*, not all, because I know a handful who understand and respect the history—a significant minority. So the statement was a truthful generalization. General, not specific—impersonal, not to be taken personally. A win is a win. Objective. Enjoy it. GOAT is subjective, which i won't let you enjoy. Nothin' personal. Just dishing a dose of futility.
We were discussing greatest Quarterbacks, not overall player. Brady nor Elway won't win those and that discussion would be endless. We can argue that the QB won't be anything without their team, that's always been fun. I don't get why you won't enjoy it. No one sane enough would argue Russell is even in the consideration as MJ but I would enjoy the counter-arguments - how did Russell get all those rings, how he played, how he was a leader of that Celtics dynasty, etc.. Because I saw Jordan play during his prime but not Russell. Or even Wilt. But I believe that's how the objective argument would go, and I'm a Celtics fan that hated Jordan in the 90's. I can't be in denial that Jordan's accomplishments does not merit the discussion. (I know you might be more into Baseball but my knowledge only goes back to 2001) So if we can discuss it objectively, has Brady accomplished everything that will consider him the greatest? Let's get everyone in on it - Montana, Elway, Staubach, Otto, Peyton, Starr, Unitas, Kelly, Marino, etc…
Oh, I would probably enjoy it, if the conversation doesn't start with knee-jerk sweeping statements, like "GOAT. Period. Full stop." 'Yan ang know-it-all, disrespecting other greats. Again, not bashing anyone in particular. You hear it often enough from fanboys. Ultimately, like music, it's subjective. I will respect it if someone said they like Kenny G, but will try my best not to ROTFL if they say they say he's GOAT based on albums sold (rings!), oblivious of the 100 years of real jazz that preceded it. Ditto with NFL, MLB, NBA, or any GOAT debate. Context is everything. That said, I liken Brady to (may the gods forgive me for comparing a NE with a NY player) to Jeter, a great (not greatest) player that fit perfectly in the system he played for. Whereas Elway IMO could've played for any team. One reason why he didn't win more rings is that, for 15 years from the early 80s to the mid 90s, only one AFC team won the Super Bowl. One! The NFC just dominated—Giants, Bears, Niners, Redskins, then the Cowboys. Had Elway, Marino, Kelly—all greats—been in the NFC, GOAT discussions today would be a lot different. Similarly, had Brady played for the Pats then (Raymond Berry era), he'd get pummeled by Richard Dent, Fridge Perry and the rest of the Super Bowl shuffle Bears. But he didn't. Brady was perfect for the Belichick system, just as Starr was for the Lombardi system, Staubach under Landry, etc. My point: no amount of GOAT greatness can carry a team alone. Besides, some rings (for the simplistic who use that as the GOAT metric) hung precariously on strokes of luck: Scott Norwood makes the field goal, Marv Leavy and Jim Kelly get a ring, beating the Giants; Manning doesn't escape the sack on a 4th-and-17 and Tyree doesn't make that catch, Pats add another ring (and we would've heard "GOAT" sooner, not to mention "best team ever"); Carroll doesn't make that "bad call", one less ring for the Pats; ditto for that Edelman catch. So clearly, the discussion should never only be about rings. And no "GOAT. Period." Ever. I am cool with dominant eras though.They credit entire teams. The Pats are like the Spurs, no Packer-like three-in-a-row championships, but consistently good (pesky!) for so long. Reminiscent of the Tom Landry era, when the Cowboys had 20 consecutive winning seasons. All legends of the game!
Elway would have won at least 4 Super Bowls if he had a better coach IMO. And I agree that Brady would not cut it during the early years, even with his Magic Kale diet. His lanky frame would be snapped in half. Tell that to Karl Malone and the Jazz There's this interesting what-if video that was made if Pats went undefeated in 2007. I would argue though that Patriots would have beaten the Cardinals for their 5th and Randy Moss would not have thrown tantrums in 2009 and probably retired as a Patriot with 2 rings. Was it the Cowboys? I thought it was the Niners that had the most consecutive, like 16, during the Walsh-Montana-Young era.
oops ano'ng nangyari? sige i'll take it back, Brady is no GOAT. a pretty sweeping statement there seriously, i consider brady better than elway. and that's coming from an elway fanboy
I remember Steve Sabol lauding Landry's legacy on NFL Films. "20", nice even number, stuck in my head. But I had to google specifics: 20 consecutive *winning seasons* from 1966 to 1985. I caught the tail end of that era, along with Don Shula's. But then, a team only needs to be over 0.500 to have a winning season which does not guarantee a playoff spot—especially back in the two division/no wildcard era. Now, you can be third best team in your division and still make the playoffs—that certainly happened frequently in NFC East, and recently in AFC North, AFC West, AFC South. Why not in the AFC East kaya?
They'll have to wait until Belichick retires. All these years I thought the Patriots needed to match the Niners dynasty. May Cowboys pa pala.
My present NFL Gamepass is still valid, but I have been unable to access it (from all my devices) for more that a week now. Anybody here having the same trouble?
I just did. I'm told that they are "currently undergoing a migration process" -- whatever that means. Just missing the NFL Network... and going back to Pats games. Thanks for the reply, arkaell. In Bill we trust!
Looking at the posts about the Pats & Belichick, the Cleveland Browns could have been the Pats. Mr. Bill was the coach & GM (I think) of the Browns before they left Cleveland. The departed Browns became the Baltimore Ravens & eventual SB champs a few years later. The SB Ravens' core was built by Belichick & Ozzie Newsome (GM of Ravens) while they were working together in Cleveland. An interesting "What-could-have-been"!
